Modern Relationship Expert Esther Perel Discusses Interconnectedness and Remedies for Modern Isolation
Title: The Nature Of: Relationships & Nature - Through the Lens of Esther Perel
Tagline: In this episode of The Nature Of, renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel shares insights on relationships that can help heal our fractured connection with nature.
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How can the way we cultivate relationships with one another offer insights into mending our troubled bond with nature? In this engaging conversation, Host Willow Defebaugh and Esther Perel delve into the intersections between human and ecological relationships and the prevalent epidemic of loneliness. From the significance of relational intelligence to the role of desire in fostering connections, this thought-provoking discussion explores how embracing the complexity of relationships—whether with people or the planet—can lead to greater resilience, reciprocity, and renewal.
About the Guest
Psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author Esther Perel is a widely recognized expert on modern relationships. Fluent in nine languages, she helms a therapy practice in New York City and provides organizational consulting for Fortune 500 companies worldwide. Esther’s celebrated TED Talks have garnered over 40 million views, and her bestselling books, Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, have been translated into more than 30 languages. Esther is also the host of the popular podcast Where Should We Begin?, which is available on Apple Podcasts. Her latest project is Where Should We Begin - A Game of Stories with Esther Perel. Learn more at https://estherperel.com or by following @EstherPerelOfficial on https://instagram.com/estherperelofficial.
Episode Transcript
Esther Perel
...because if we talk about interdependent parts, in order for them to be thriving, they have to be mutual. Mutual and sustainable. I think, like, in nature...
NARRATION
As I sat down to interview esteemed relationships expert Esther Perel, I couldn't help but wonder: can her insights on modern relationships help us heal our strained connection with the planet? After all, when I think of the natural world, I see it as diverse relationships—plants and pollinators, even humans and trees—all interconnected, supporting, and depending on each other to survive.
My name is Willow Defebaugh. This is The Nature Of. Each week, we'll look to the natural world for inspiration on how to navigate the human experience. In today's episode, we're exploring the nature of relationships.
In a world of hyperconnectivity, where we have instant access to everyone we've ever known, so many of us still feel alone. So let's join Esther and I as we delve into how to confront this modern loneliness epidemic and shift from a culture of isolation to one of interdependence.
Willow Defebaugh
Welcome, Esther, to The Nature Of. I'm so thrilled to have you here today to talk about the nature of relationships. When it comes to love, communication, and connection, your work has arguably reshaped the way we understand these topics in our modern world.
But as I looked at nature, I was struck by the idea that it's a series of relationships, like plants and pollinators or humans and trees. We all depend on one another to survive. So I'm curious, in your eyes, what does a healthy relationship look like? And how do we cultivate that?
Esther
Can I do a little detour, please?
Willow
I love a detour.
Esther
Because I've been thinking, as I was reading your introduction, about the connection between relationships and nature, to biomimicry, to the biological world, that I don't often articulate. But it lives deep inside of me. Because I was trained as a systemic family therapist, I began to look at relationships as living organisms made up of interdependent parts, which is exactly what you describe when you think about nature.
All these interdependent parts live with each other, knowingly or unknowingly. They affect each other. They're shaped by each other. If you touch one, it affects the whole system. Problems take place because of the context, so what is the system organized to keep the problem in existence, and what needs to change in the system for the problem to change, dissolve, or be resolved? To regulate itself, a relational system regulates itself by constantly straddling the need for stability and the need for change. Duty and obligation, versus freedom and desire. And I kept thinking, as I was reading you, this is the basis of our connection, our interdependence.
Willow
There's so much there that I want to pull out. It's a perfect starting place. No, it's the heart of it. When you mentioned the importance of relational intelligence, I was reminded of a beautiful essay by adrienne maree brown, who discusses the power of mutual aid and interdependent networks in her work on social justice and ecology.
In this fractured world that so many of us inhabit, do you think it's possible to return to a more authentic way of relating, with people and with the planet? And if so, where should we start?
Esther
Well, I mean, I am a relationship therapist, so this is kind of what I've devoted myself to in families, friendships, work relationships, romantic relationships. But on a larger scale level, I'm not very optimistic at this moment. I see the splintering and the complete fracturing and fragmenting of people in separate atomization, little entities.
But I do see festivals and gatherings. Particularly festivals, the renewal of the focus on experiential, almost another way of bringing back religion. So I see both. I see us really not completely giving up, but I do think that the forces of the moment are forces that separate us, rather than forces that bring us together.
Willow
I see two different things, right? I see the world of tech, where we're more connected than ever before, and yet, many of us feel lonelier than ever before. And this idea that the climate crisis is a crisis of relationships, we've lost our ability to be in healthy relationships with the planet. Our relationship with nature has become transactional. It's extraction. One-sided.
So I'm wondering, if we're gonna heal society, if we're gonna heal our individual relationships, is it possible that we might be able to heal our relationship with the planet, too?
Esther
That's a very interesting question. I have two thoughts on that, Willow. When I grew up, I was trained as a psychoanalyst, very individual, deep psychology. The shift to systemic thinking was a revolution of the fifties and sixties, where we began to look at ourselves contextually.
So instead of looking at the individual and the unconscious, we started to look at what was between you and another. From there, it went to the family, then to the community. That community and the family needed to be looked at in relationship to religion, ethnicity, class, race, but nature was never mentioned.
We are not talking about the relationship to the universe, to the planet, to the air, to the water, to the sky. We are all here today saying, what a beautiful day. And some of us are saying, this is eerie. It shouldn't be so warm. Where is the chill in the air? But part of us enjoys it. Last week, I went for my first time to a workshop, a retreat, the whole weekend on More Than Human.
And it was about human rights, but it was also about rights for other species, for nature, for rivers, for water, for air, and we did a series of exercises and practices that had to do with our relationship, our alienation, and our connection to the natural world around us.
And I had a feeling, as I was there, that I've just gone through an art class where one teaches me to look with a different eye, to sense with different senses, to pick up information that I don't usually even pay attention to, and I imagined the memories of being taken to see artworks and realizing that I had not even seen any of this before, doing the same thing when I explain what I've just seen in a sequence between people and how I'm tracking the interaction at every level, overt, covert, spoken, unspoken, physical, the contradictions, the tension that I can read this, but I cannot read nature.
And I had a feeling that I've had the first introduction to that language.
Willow
It is a beautiful language to learn, and it's so interesting, because when you look at what happens when we stop seeing nature in this transactional way, and we start to see it as being intelligent, as being alive, that enables us to have a deeper appreciation for its complexity andfor the beauty of it, and to be more humble in our relationship with it. That's something I think we could all benefit from.
Esther
Indeed. So you know, when I think about the interdependence in nature, and the kinds of relationships that keep ecosystems thriving, it also makes me think about power. How power often comes from the bottom up. That power is not just who has the most power, but who has the determining power. Who is doing what function for the system that it depends upon, but doesn't really pay attention to it.
So if you change too fast, too soon, you go chaotic, and you dysregulate. So you absolutely need both. You need duty and obligation, and you need freedom and desire. And I kept thinking, as I was reading you, as you were talking about interdependence, we need to move away from this anthropocentric view of the world, where it's a pyramid, and instead, we need to think of ourselves as being one strand in this web.
Our actions have rippling effects that can either harm or support the health of the entire system.
Willow
Absolutely. It's so interesting because in my research, I came across a fascinating study where researchers from Yale and Harvard experimented with interactions between humans andieleàdes, a type of ant. In these experiments, the ants' ability to find food improved significantly when faced with smaller, more intricate environments, as compared to larger, simpler ones.
What this study showed was, in complex ecosystems, everything is connected, and the slightest change can have a significant impact. It's clear that this is the case with our relationships with each other, but it's also true for our relationship with the planet.
Esther
Absolutely. And earlier today, I was looking at some of the ways in which ants communicate with each other and what they are really trying to convey to each other. They're not just trying to point in the direction that the food is, but they're also trying to communicate the level of urgency. This is an interesting thing because it creates a sense of urgency that you don't usually associate with an ant. But once you realize that, it completely changes the way you think about them.
Willow
Indeed, it does. And in that sense, I think learning how to see nature, learning how to engage with the plant kingdom, learning how to engage with the fauna, it can help us grow our capacity for reverence, for respect, for curiosity, and for humility.
I think for so long, particularly in Western science, it's been taboo to anthropomorphize other species, to see our own humanity reflected back in them. But more and more scientists are coming forward now, declaring that other life forms are intelligent and do display consciousness.
So I think by learning how to see in this more holistic and inclusive way, we really start to reconnect with this deeper sense of interdependence, that we've lost through our overemphasis on individualism.
Esther
Indeed. And I think that's one of the reasons I wanted to explore these aspects with you today, because most of the conversations I've had are not framed in that way. So it was a pleasure to explore these ideas with you.
Willow
Thank you, Esther. It's been a real honor to have you on the show today. And on behalf of everyone out there, thank you for all the incredible work you do, helping us navigate our relationships, whether they be with the people in our lives, or the planet itself.
Esther
It's my pleasure, thank you.
Narration
Nature is all about interdependence, a web of reciprocity. We as humans have created a hierarchical world, where we place ourselves at the top, perpetuating isolation and disconnection from the natural world. The connection between human relationships and our relationship with the planet is clear. By acknowledging the intelligence and consciousness of other species and learning to see the world holistically, we can cultivate a greater sense of reverence, curiosity, and humility, and in turn, heal our fractured bond with the natural world.
As Esther shared, we must move away from our anthropocentric perspective, recognizing that everything in nature is connected and that our actions have rippling effects that can either harm or support the health of the entire system. By learning to communicate with each other and the planet in a more nuanced way, we can begin to rebuild the bond that has been fractured over centuries. Let's take a moment to cultivate that deeper connection with the natural world, and with each other.
Esther Perel
Can we slowly go back to something that is more real, three-dimensional, tactile, physical, and mutual? Because if we talk about interdependent parts, in order for them to be thriving, they have to be mutual. Mutual and sustainable. I think, like, in nature...
NARRATION
At the end of each episode, I offer three prompts for guided self-reflection to help internalize and investigate how this week's themes show up in our daily lives and how we can apply the principles discussed.
For this week, my questions are:
- Which relationships in my life feel the most mutualistic? Are there any that feel transactional?
- What makes me feel lonely? And what makes me feel connected? How can I cultivate more connection in my life and in my relationship with the natural world?
- What actions can I take in my daily life to contribute to a more interdependent ecosystem?
Join us next week for another episode of The Nature Of, where we explore the story of the world’s first manmade rainforest and the lessons it teaches us about the power of resilience.
The Nature Of is an Atmos podcast produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum of Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Julia Natt, Eleanor Kagan, and Daniel Hartman. Our sound designer is Kristen Mueller.
The Executive Producers of The Nature Of are me: Willow Defebaugh, Theresa Perez, Jake Sargent, and Eric Nuzum.
Atmos is a nonprofit. To support our work or this podcast, see our show notes or visit our website/biome.
I'm your host Willow Defebaugh, and This is The Nature Of.
- Esther Perel's insights on relationships offer potential solutions to heal our strained connection with nature, as nature can be perceived as a series of diverse relationships between plants, animals, and humans.
- Esther emphasizes the importance of mutual and sustainable relationships in nature, suggesting that our relationship with the planet might benefit from similar principles.
- As Willow Delebaugh ponders the interdependence between relationships and nature, she poses the question: is it possible to return to a more authentic way of relating with both humans and the planet?
- In a world plagued by hyperconnectivity, where many still feel lonely, Esther and Willow discuss the modern loneliness epidemic and shift from a culture of isolation to one of interdependence.
- Embracing the complexity of relationships, whether with people or the planet, can lead to greater resilience, reciprocity, and renewal, according to Esther Perel.
- Willow Delebaugh, the host of The Nature Of, draws inspiration from nature as diverse relationships, such as plants and pollinators, to explore the nature of relationships in this episode.
- Esther Perel, a renowned relationships expert, discusses the connection between relationships, biomimicry, and the biological world in her conversation with Willow Delebaugh.
- The Nature Of magazine, podcast, newsletter, and other educational and self-development content revolve around exploring nature's wisdom for navigating the human experience, such as the nature of relationships.
